meatngreet wrote:

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Back in the day apprentice programs were generally 2 year programs, this was when carcass breaking and primal cutting was part of everyday activities in meat departments, with boxed beef these skills are no longer taught, or needed at store level.

This means a proper apprentice/clerk program could be much shorter,

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Jeffrey,

   I worked 6 days a week for 28 years in the meat business except for the times I worked 7 days a week.  Let's face it if you are in the retail meat business your "weekend" is typically Tuesday or Wednesday, but not both.

  I'd say I liked it for the first 20 years but looking back I realize I never really enjoyed a holiday with my family. As a meat manager every holiday was typically a merchandising event. Before I was a meat manger while I was off Thanksgiving and Christmas Day, the holiday ended at midnight and I had to be back at work at midnight cutting production for the next day. I can understand young people not wanting to do this I guess, though perhaps not so much in today's economy.

I had a good run and now I'm collecting a humongous pension of $489 a month.

Gee I wonder why it's so hard to get new blood in the business? 

Meatngreet,

  One thing I will say about the advent of boxed beef, chill pack chicken, etc, is that working conditions got much better. Sure wages got worse , but the types of and quantities of injuries today are nothing like they were in the 60s and 70s when we broke down hindquarters and forequarters, etc.

When I was an apprentice my typical day was to cut up 50 cases of chickens for parts, EVERY day, and clean the dept. and cooler. Then if I wanted to actually learn anything, I had to stay on my own time to work with the guy who worked that evening. If you did his work, and cleaned the cutting room at the end of his shift, he taught you something. If you were lucky, you'd eventually work with the veal guy who taught you how to work a calf.

Just sayin....

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RAoul Baxter

President at Worldwide Business Development Corporation

 When i started in the meat industry at Sara Lee over 35 years ago,plants were much smaller.lines were much slower and the on line butchers did a variety of jobs.As you began to see more specialized plants-newer plants-you also saw much fatsre chain speeds and individual jobs became more specialized.Even the art of sharpening and usung knoives properly began to disappear.Plants,particularly after export business like to Japan picked up,required more boneless product done at the plants.these skills are still there.however it has become very narrow-sopecialized skills as a person might work on just loins or shoulders all day.Very-very little profitible work left boning out carcasses-which require all the skills of a good knife person.Also,it is almost impossible to get carcasses from anyone anymore.
You actually have a lot of skilled meat cutters out there,but they have become more specialized.Once a person knows how to sharpen and keep a blade sharp-and gets on line experience of using a knife-and being able to cut to very narrow specifications-can be trained for all types of boning jobs.It is always -quality[adherence to specifications-all the time]-then yields and then efficiency.
Knife cutting requires both skill and physical ability.when i started most of the lines were 350-450/hour.today they are 1,000-1,200/hour for hogs.the carcasses are much heavier.the products to be used are much different than before.If there is any area of real knife expertise-it is in beef-particular food service oriented companies.

First you have to have an incentive to actually encourage someone to become a skilled butcher.Then you have to have businesses who need and will reward those people for their efforts.The reality is that though highly trained meat cutters are extremely valuable,plants and businesses have a very finite idea as to what those jobs are worth from a pay standpoint.
Over the years,i have been involved with plant start ups in both beef and pork.also with plants in china,Japan,Brazil,France,the EU,Poland,romania ,Ukraine and russia.Meat cutting skill on a commercial basis is integrated into a production system.The europeans do a great job of havoing meat university type schools and apprentice programs.In turn these people flow into operating plants and businesses.The Meat world-everywhere has changed.Plants today in america are making much more difficult products[specs] and a wider variety of products than ever before.Speeds,sizes,packaging,sanitation,hygeien,packaging and delivery are all very detailed and complex.Products are shipped all over the world,not just within 25 miles of a plant like in the old day.Plant environments are colder and faster than ever.It always was-and still is -hard work.
If you have a local-full service butcher shop-that is usually where you see the greatest combination of meat cutting skills.However,even most of these are limited because few get meat in a carcasses
form any more.Plants can use things like bones,skin and fat a lot more affectively and economically than a butcher shop.
right now,there are a lot of highly skilled meat cutters in plants all over the US.the reality is that virtually all are engaged in specialized versus general work.

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Thomas D.

President at Birch Hill Meats

I have found that young people who are interested in a career in the food industry generally start with a cooking school with the intention to be a chef. I have used cooking school chef interns in my stores meat department, these people have an interest in food and can handle a knife. I have had success training butchers who intended on being chefs, also they seem to be more interested and better learners of cutting meat when hanging meat is involved, and also curing,aging and preparing meats to be oven ready. Maybe supermarkets can initiate an internship program for these food enthusiasts and show them all aspects of food prep by bringing them into the meat departments, if there is a job in the future the level of interest will increase with this particular group of people. Ultimately they are all looking for a career, it doesnt have to be a career as a chef, just a career with oportunuity.

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Fred H. ( Sam ) Johnson III

 CEO at Summitcrest Inc

Most of our major land grant university's have the facilities and the expertise to train butchers/meat cutters but use these facilities mostly for full degree programs. These are mostly underutilized assets which could (and perhaps should) be used for trade certifications. As most of these universities are under state budget constraints they may be more receptive than in the past to developing short course and or certification programs. Federal job retraining funds should also be available. Contact: University of Nebraska Lincoln, Ohio State University, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Penn State, Colorado State University, Iowa State University...all of these universities and some of their affiliates have meats labs that are in need of full utilization.

I have to say it guys and I apologize if I hurt a feeling or two- but all you old timers should not have any left lol. Because I sure don't. Watch the profound sense of entitlement around new guys. I myself do not have 35 to 40 years in the buisness but more then 20. I agree that kids today hate work-but somebody has got to lift those 85lb pork loins and 100lb semi-side of veal boxes to get to the flats and eyes underneath- oh yeah you used to do it all the time- note the words used to. Setting examples go a long way-the meat manager should not be the only guy doing it. Any clerk or apprentice that makes it past 6 months and shows intiative needs encouragement-not ball-busting about how hard it used to be years ago breaking down hanging beef with sawdust on the floor while you made 5 bucks a day doing it.  Don't tell them something-show them something. Some will respect you-some will not. Nobody owes anyone anything special due to time in a bottle. I have lasted as long as I have because I respect my elders and their opinions and advice. But kids today are faster and more efficient due to technology. They believe in getting places and advancing quicker then we were. Working hard and the so-called term "paying your dues" does not ring with them as it did with the proir generations. More tact is needed to retain good workers-not only a couple more bucks an hour-but the money always helps also.

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Doug Levene 

Owner at 4 West LLC

I have read and re-read your question several times. Similarly, I have had the distinct pleasure of reading the very insightful and cogent comments made by my predecessors in this discussion. Unfortunately the answer to your query is a very complex one that requires far more space and time than I believe this format allows.
In order to fully appreciate the status of "butchering" and "meat cutting" we are compelled to take a trip down memory lane to gain a historical perspective and thus trace the evolution of this possibly, soon to be lost, craft. If we travel back in time to the meat industry of Upton Sinclair's book "The Jungle", we can see that the sanitary conditions have been vastly improved and to a smaller extent the working environment. But, I sadly feel that little of the perception of the butcher / meat cutter as anything more than a semi-skilled laborer has changed.
My comments are not intended as an indictment against anyone or any private or government body. There is enough blame for the lack of esteem for, these "Craftsmen" and or "Artisans" to go around for everyone. Yes, the government improved working conditions for the workers. But it did nothing to improve their status. Had an agency of what was to become the USDA [and or now the FSIS] been created to establish education, training, skill levels, testing,and licensing for specific segments of the industry the perception of the public may have been different. Yes, the Unions played a very necessary and significant role in the protection of the interests of the workers. But they did very little to elevate their station so that they could be percieved as on par with that of a plumber, electrician, or truck driver. Then, of course there were the "owners" whose own short sightedness and fear of creating their own "monsters" only added to the stagnation of any improvement in the image of the workers.
I began my career in the meat industry as a sixteen year old high school student working as a "lugger' in a meat-packing plant in the Bronx, N.Y. in 1966. Yes, it was in a bad neighborhood, with roaches, rats, burned out cars, buildings and lots of bad people. But my most vivid memories were of those hard working, proud, people in their blue thermal coats covered with white gowns stained with blood. Many went to work as early as 12 AM unloading trailers filled with carcasses to be processed.. Others could be found on barely above freezing rooms on production lines at 4 AM. These souls went to work in the heat of summer and the freezing cold of winter. They had a couple of breaks and a short lunch period during their work day. If business was good they worked overtime and sometimes even on a Saturday. If business was bad, they could be laid off with little or no notice. They came from all walks of life and they were real happy to have a job. I admired their work ethic and the way they conducted themselves as employees.
I continued my association with the industry throughout college and upon graduation went to work for Wilson & Co. [then Wilson Sinclair] at their HRI [ now Foodservice] branch in New York's Washington Street market. In my travels all over the Country and even in Europe, The uniform of the Meat workers rarely varied. The same white gowns stained with blood. Of importance was that no matter what language they spoke, they were almost without exception hard workers who were proud of what they did. Many years ago I had the opportunity to come back to New York and visit the Market one afternoon. I met a former fellow worker who was now a very succesful owner of a meat company. He was pushing some rounds on a rail into a trailer bound for some unknown customer. In jest, I said to him that "somethings never change". His quick retort was "why should they?". I have never forgotten those words. In response to your question there are a lot of changes necesary to be made now by every interested party. I just hope that if and when come it is not too late.

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 Jeff Denoyer

Plant Manager at KLM Packing Company - Chicago

I started as an apprentice at my local grocery store and learned the trade from a generation of meat cutters who did everything the old fashioned way. We bought sides of beef and broke down with hand saws knives and cleavers. This truley is the way way to learn the anatomy of the animal. Since so many chain stores have gone to case ready and gas flush products provided by the big packers, there has been no need to learn or train new talent. I personally think case ready products are inferior to the fresh cuts we all enjoyed from our local butcher shops growing up. The meat is no longer fresh and a lot of cutts out there don't even resemble the description on the packaging. Sometime progress causes regress.

Mainemeatman wrote:

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First of all, if their is a shortage of cutters-that means there is a demand for cutters-which is good for all of us!

Many variables and forces have led up to the shortage- I started as a cleanup kid in the arly 80's-I remember talking to the meat supervisor at the time about future opportunities and he said " Meatcutters will be obsolete within ten years-the industry is moving more towards centralized cutting and case-ready product- this attitude was derived from two-motives, the first being that there was a "glut" of meatcutters at the time, because in the previous 7 years, the chain stores went to boxed beef-not hanging beef-a lot less labor, so there were plenty of meatcutters around, the second motive was the top brass saw a huge opportunity to finally cut payrolls in meat depts, and the industry even at the time was experimenting with case ready, vacuum sealed steaks.

In fact, the title descriptions changed-no longer "apprentices" but "cutterclerks" which were rookies like myself, who could clean, wrap, and even cut, for 4-6 less an hour than cutters- this was frustrating because alot of decent guys trying to learn the trade- felt they were being used, and placed a "ceiling" on opportunities.
Well, I remember many of good employees, leaving, to be welders, build houses, etc, because of the ceiling.

I remember many old-timers telling me the meatcutters and meat managers were once very respected and revered- now the winds of change was blowing- top brass now called meatcutters "slicers" and diminished the legitimacy of the trade because of bnls boxed beef-most were grocery guys that were store managers- that never worked in the meat dept, also keep in mind, store managers, live and die by short term budgets, so any opportunity to "get by" was exploited- the cutting- was cutting of payroll budgets-

Going into the 90's, produce sales were surging, and even surpassing meat sales in some stores-meat was getting **** on for causing heart-attacks, and a "eat less meat" movement was increasing-particularly, amongst the fruits and nuts people-that would look down there nose on any red-meat, unfortunately, many of these fruits and nuts people, were in high management forming and outlining policy
when it comes to store meat departments. Payroll budgets were shrinking, sales per man hour were huge-and case planograms of corporate stores shrunk more and more hard labor cutting display area, and more and more pre-pack items in meatcases.

Thru the 90's many old-timers retired, or placed in seafood departments, or found other employment. The supermarkets were getting what they wanted- better payrolls, more and more labor being paid for "clerk" time- lowering the average hourly rates and again-payroll budgets-more clerk hours for pricing more pre-pack items

In this Era, I remember reading an article in a supermarket magazine, and also in the newspaper 'THE CORNER BUTCHER SHOP IS DEAD"
highlighting pre-cut/case-ready meats are the rage of the now and future- here is a great example of a writer who hasnt a clue- because I remember thinking the writer has is ass-backwards, if all supermarkets went pre-pack meats, then butcher shops would start opening all around- most of the public does NOT like injected/enhanced vac sealed meats from hundreds of miles away.

In this era, more and more beef came in xt (extra-trim) and less commodity cutting even more meatcutting hours out of the grocery store meat depts. Keep in mind, many chains- wanted the "high-priced" cutter just to stand at the bench and cut" -the lower priced clerks could bring the product out, carry the burger lugs in the cooler, etc.
A meat manager at the time- had to make a schedule based on actual "cutting time" of a meatcutter not leaving the bench.

So, the forces were in place industry wide, to reduce the actual meatcutting times in stores, but then a couple market forces were evolving, the first, was, because the industry was on a "cut meatcutting hours" mandate for 20 years, they are now chasing their tails when they are actually losing sales in a "get-by" mode, and in the 2000 decade. walmart evolved into the largest grocery store selling chain in history, almost doubling kroger's sales, and kroger was top dog in sales for years.
Wal-mart- did away with meatcutters, and went the way of case-ready-now you would think the other chain stores would be thinking- this is the utopia we've wanted for 25 years- we will do case ready too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But what happended?? this is the power of capitalism and competition, the chain stores relunctantly recognized, that there traditional meat departments, were a competitive advantage over walmart-they had cutters in the stores!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The other social/cultural changes at this time was the atkins diet was a huge fad, based on high protein diets-meat, and many dieticians and doctors were also saying fresh meats weren't the source of all-medical evils, that lean meats were actually good for you!
during the 5 years of the atkins craze meat sales surged 20-30% increasing the demand for more fresh-cut meats.

ALL this time-thru the decades, many independents had closed, and many independents had remodeled re-investing in renovations and new equipment, AND an emphasis on perishable departments for a competitive edge-featuring, there meat departments
Many many independents do very very well, with meat departments-they lead the competitive edge.

so the meatcutter pendulum started swinging back hard the other way- and the retail industry, which tried so hard to diminish the importance of meatcutters in the stores, were now faced with "where do we now get competent cutters"?


Now the competitive landscape is very colorful, small butcher shops/specialty markets are springing up, the chain stores, are losing grocery sales to wal-mart, but also recognize, their meat departments are the lead competitive department to keep loyal customers.

Independents, who have survived consolidations of warehouses, have survived, retail wars with big box stores, have more tools, and flexibility to compete than ever, are also seeing a surge in business- also leading with there meat departments.

In the competitive retail battlefield, consumers do buy and will buy fresh cut meats- no matter the daily feel-good fads of vegetarians,
or the media dumping on the meat industry every chance it gets- in fact, consumers want a trusting face behind the meat counter more so now than ever, and the industry has also recognized that they DO NEED MEATCUTTERS for a successful store


So where are the new breed of meatcutters coming from today? yes, most are taught in-house- chain stores prefer this because they have there own standards and practices, it's much easier to teach/train the first time, than to change a bad habit.

In closing, I suggest all aspiring meatcutters to look at independents- submit a resume' to the owner, or if you can find out who the meat supervisors are for independent stores- submit a resume to him/her- ask store owners/managers this question when you submit a resume-as a meat supervisor, I get involved alot in hiring/firing in stores and manpower planning


I also believe that some ambitious folks that work in independents can start "meat cutter training" modules that people will pay for
1. 2. and 3. classifications- set the training hours that are convenient for you-again, if you advertised publicly, "meatcutter training, or "foot in the door" hands on classes" or training, many folks will sign up-remember they are paying for this, and out of this pool of applicants, you can pick the truly ambitious to work at your place in the future.

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 I completely agree with this. My problem is my labor % allowance. In the last 2 years I've been attempting to advance 2 trained apprentices to journeyman status as well train 3 clerks to advance to apprentice, but with no added labor % though sales growth profit percentage have increased at 10-20% monthly. I have not been allowed supplemental clerks to fill the breach for the cutters on counter duty. How can I invest the time in proper training if I have to stop every 2 minutes to send one of the trainees to help the counter? I have not been allowed any increase in my labor goal, in fact I've been instructed to lower my labor percentage and increase my sales/margin. I work for an independent but it feels like when I worked for a major retail outlet. WTF?