Of course until late last century, many USA markets used to sell ground "chuck", "round", and "sirloin" even though they were not necessarily what they were being called.
Until maybe a year ago, Safeway had 90/10 sirloin in their stores. It was made from tubes. I always wondered what the packers used. In my opinion, sirloin tip is not sirloin. It's round. You may not use sirloin tips for ground sirloin.
Raley's (Northern Ca.) used to (late 1990s) grind CAB sirloin tips (AKA knuckles) for "CAB ground round". By company policy, nothing else could be used for CAB ground round. Not even CAB insides round were allowed for Raley's CAB ground round. in 2000-2002 at least, Raley's had pre packaged ground sirloin. Just open the box and price it. Customers complained it was chewy.
We've discussed this before in another thread, covering round, chuck, and sirloin. At that time, no one here (even Leon) had ever seen top sirloin used for ground sirloin except for occasional customer requests (never for the counter). Ground sirloin was always just the leanest ground beef in your counter. Sometimes it was exactly the same as the "ground round" except that it was ground 3 times to make it look leaner.
In my opinion, ground round could be top round, bottom round, eye of round, sirloin tip, and maybe hind shank.
Sirloin should probably be only top sirloin, but maybe tri tip. For sure not ball tips even though the remain in the head loin when broken that way. I don't think short loin, or flap meat is sirloin.
I n oticed a lot of depts determine the type of grind by the fat ratio. Meat from top of round could be called ground chuck if they add enough fat to it. I even seen some cutter trim up chuck meat really good and call it ground round. I always used knuckles for ground sirloin too. Never seen a top sirloin ground for that reason. That is probably why stores use meat/fat ratio numbers instead of misleading names, so they can get around it
IMO ground sirloin can come from any part of the BI sirloin primal ie the top butt, butt tender, tri tip, ball tip, flap and or coulette
I wouldn't have any problem with someone boning and grinding an entire head loin and calling it "ground sirloin". But I don't think using only ball tips would qualify for ground sirloin. Same for butt tender, tri tip, or flap meat.
I did grind sirloin steak for a customer about 3 years ago. I was always curious how it would taste. So I made some for myself too. It was terrible.
Burgermiester, everything you said is correct. The knuckle is part of the round, and no packer that kills graded beef will grind loin muscle cuts for ground sirloin, they would go out of business fast. As far as the bottom sirloin is concerned, ( tri-tip, ball tip, and flap meat) will sell for more than ground sirloin certain times of the year. Even if those cuts were below sirloin trim price all 3 together amount to only about 10-15 pounds of sirloin per head of cattle.
This is a complex issue and should be discussed by many club members especially the ones that sell ground sirloin. Here are the two possible scenarios.
1) Labeling at packer level. When packers come up with a marketing idea and have to create a new name for a cut of beef they must get approval from USDA before they create the label that will go on the outside of the box of beef. So lets say a packer sees an opportunity to sell ground sirloin. He also knows that sometimes during the year beef knuckles (sirloin tip) will drop in price and they have to lower their prices to retailers to move them. So to eliminate the lower prices they come up with ground sirloin. But they need a label approval. So lets say they make a label that reads Ground Sirloin/Loin. This gets a little technical but just stay with me. They present the label to USDA and it is accepted. Once it is accepted, then any part of the loin can be used for ground sirloin including the dropped flank, (not the flank steak) the whole flank minus the steak. On some leaner animals you can get some lean meat from the flank. This will help increase the poundage per head for ground sirloin.
However, the meat guys know that they are not going to grind up choice or select top sirloin butts or N.Y. strips and for sure never a tenderloin. They need that sirloin tip because that can get them an additional 30 pounds of ground sirloin per head depending on the size of the animals. They know that the Feds know that a sirloin tip comes from the round so the only way around it is drop the loin with the knuckle attached? Then the knuckle is apart of the the loin!
2)---Some major packers own satellite cow plants. There are many uses for cow meat (dairy cattle), but basically cows are bought for their lean values. Cows carcasses are house graded, that means plant management will identify the cows as; Canner, Cutter, Utility and Other. The real value of the cow carcass is in the lean-point value. For instance, a Canner Cow will likely fall in the 90% lean range. A Cutter Cow will fall within the 85% range and Utility cows will fall within the 70 to 75 % lean range.
The lean sub primal cuts from Canner and Cutters like the loin and round cuts will get sold for premium-grinds, however not the tenderloins. They are sold as such. A full flank is very lean on cutters and canners which will drive up the per head poundage of ground sirloin.
In summary I would say it would be interesting if someone that uses tube ground sirloin can tell us what the label says. If the label says Ground Sirloin then that would mean everything in those tubes come from sirloin cuts and trim. Unless someone is playing games. The label is the key.
-- Edited by Coalcracker on Saturday 21st of January 2017 03:01:39 PM
-- Edited by Coalcracker on Saturday 21st of January 2017 03:03:27 PM
....................In summary I would say it would be interesting if someone that uses tube ground sirloin can tell us what the label says. If the label says Ground Sirloin then that would mean everything in those tubes come from sirloin cuts and trim. Unless someone is playing games. The label is the key. .............
I'll be working at a Safeway store on Monday. I'll check their 90/10 tubes, but I'm pretty sure they're not "sirloin" anymore. I think that changed when Albertsons bought Safeway few years ago. If they're sirloin, I'll get as much info as possible. Maybe I can find some old 90/10 sirloin stickers with nutrition facts. I doubt I'll find anything at all. Will let you know either way Late Monday night.
....................In summary I would say it would be interesting if someone that uses tube ground sirloin can tell us what the label says. If the label says Ground Sirloin then that would mean everything in those tubes come from sirloin cuts and trim. Unless someone is playing games. The label is the key. .............
That would be great in the meantime I'll put out some feelers too.
Something else crossed my mind; if a packer produces both ground round and sirloin then they would have the best of both worlds using the beef knuckle (sirloin tip)! If you look at the current wholesale prices of both grinds, the ground round is selling in the neighborhood of $ 2.75 per pound and the sirloin at $3.40 per pound.
A packer(and in a smaller way a supermarket) would have the best of both worlds or for that matter a retailer as well. With a .60 cents per pound spread that would mean on a case of knuckles, ( at lets say 65 pounds) that is an extra $42 bucks going into the bank. Or another way to look at it is, (only a guess) if there are 8 knuckles in a box that equates to 4 head of cattle. So divide $42 by 4 which equals $10.50 per head. The large packers kill anywhere from 3,000 to 4,000 per day which would be a handsome gross profit of between $31,500 to $40,000 per day if all the knuckles went for ground sirloin. Now I know it sounds far fetched because very seldom will a packer use its entire days production of knuckle's for ground sirloin. However, as you can see over a period of a weeks production it could be possible.
I'll be working at a Safeway store on Monday. I'll check their 90/10 tubes, but I'm pretty sure they're not "sirloin" anymore. I think that changed when Albertsons bought Safeway few years ago. If they're sirloin, I'll get as much info as possible. Maybe I can find some old 90/10 sirloin stickers with nutrition facts. I doubt I'll find anything at all. Will let you know either way Late Monday night.
Here's an old Safeway grind list. I don't think the two 90% sirloins are in the system anymore. The current 90/10 does not say sirloin. I'll check Monday.
I've never seen the 73/27. They never make it in any store that I worked at. Possibly it's for other parts of the country. The 96/4 is pre packaged We open the box and price the packages. Everything is tubes except for the 80% that says "market" or "MKT". EVP means value packages.
Here's an old Safeway grind list. I don't think the two 90% sirloins are in the system anymore. The current 90/10 does not say sirloin. I'll check Monday.
I've never seen the 73/27. They never make it in any store that I worked at. Possibly it's for other parts of the country. The 96/4 is pre packaged We open the box and price the packages. Everything is tubes except for the 80% that says "market" or "MKT". EVP means value packages.
What do they do with the beef trimmings if they don't make 73/27!
What do they do with the beef trimmings if they don't make 73/27!
"In my day", (long ago), we did make 70/30 grind. It was "regular" ground beef. Often on sale for .99 or .89. Older people remember 3 lbs for $1.00. Right Coalcracker?
When I wrote that I've "never seen it", I mean I haven't seen it this century at Safeway. However, my store has a code for 70/30. We only use it by special request.
Moonlighting my day off today at Safeway, I checked out the ground sirloin thing. They don't make it any more, but they forgot to tell the people who order and/or make the stickers that they quit making it. The Safeway 90/10 ground beef labels still say "ground beef sirloin". Another example meat supervisors or other top idiots not doing a good job.
-- Edited by Burgermeister on Monday 23rd of January 2017 10:52:24 PM
Burgermeister, thank you for all your research. It is amazing how when we follow-up on subject matter that we stumble over a "side issue". Like you did with the label still saying "ground sirloin". If you think its the right thing to do (politics and all), tell upper management about this label issue so that they can correct it.
As for the ground sirloin category I would venture to guess that it has been eliminated due to the shear volume that would be needed at the retail level. This could have been the reasoning for eliminating this category of ground beef. As I said in a previous post only ground beef plants that use cow meat would be the possible only suppliers for ground sirloin.
It sure would be nice if other members would chime-in so we could get a thorough understanding of whether or not ground sirloin is being bought and sold and retail.
Burgermeister, thank you for all your research. It is amazing how when we follow-up on subject matter that we stumble over a "side issue". Like you did with the label still saying "ground sirloin". If you think its the right thing to do (politics and all), tell upper management about this label issue so that they can correct it.
As for the ground sirloin category I would venture to guess that it has been eliminated due to the shear volume that would be needed at the retail level. This could have been the reasoning for eliminating this category of ground beef. As I said in a previous post only ground beef plants that use cow meat would be the possible only suppliers for ground sirloin.
It sure would be nice if other members would chime-in so we could get a thorough understanding of whether or not ground sirloin is being bought and sold and retail.
The cow meat is a good explanation. Could they use bull meat too? We used to (1982) have frozen Australian bull meat in 60 lb blocks that the night man every night had to cut on the saw and allow it to thaw overnight at room temp (a no no today, ya right, lol). It was to be used for lean grind for the next day.
It's interesting that those labels are used no matter what company supplies the tube meat and that they use the same 80/20 label for tube meat or market trim. Sometimes the market trim is much leaner than 80/20, but it's still labeled 80/20.
Another thing about the frozen bull meat from 1982. We did this only once. Some may remember this because I wrote about it before. We had a lamb ad. Ground lamb was one of the items in the ad. We had no trim. Someone suggested that we grind 50% bull meat with 50% lamb fat and call it ground lamb. Another person agreed that it was a good idea. Lamb fat has a strong flavor and bull meat a weak flavor. Combine the two and you'll have some decent ground lamb. A few months later, one customer did complain about it.
Believe it or not, I was using those 60lb cases of frozen bull meat for low priced bulk meat sales as recent as 5 years ago. I chopped it on the saw and left it to thaw in the cooler. Some Independent stores still do things like that.
Believe it or not, I was using those 60lb cases of frozen bull meat for low priced bulk meat sales as recent as 5 years ago. I chopped it on the saw and left it to thaw in the cooler. Some Independent stores still do things like that.
Oh yes in deed. Frozen Australian frozen beef blocks was the norm back in the day. I believe we also got some from Ireland and New Zealand. But getting back to the bull meat issue that Burgermeister brought up; (one thing about Burgermeister that I really like is his ability to bring up topics that are so darn interesting). And further more he is almost precise in explaining it.
There are several small beef packers that kill bulls and yes bull meat is sought after for many reasons other than its lean content that could reach 95%. Bull meat has a binding quality about it that lunch meat producers all over the globe need and appreciate. However, slaughtering bulls is a challenge and requires carcass rails that are higher than normal and equipment that are "bull strong'). A mature bull has an extremely thick hide especially over the kill zone which requires special (retractable stunning bolts ). Fat cattle killers don't kill bulls. Cow killers will kill bulls but cattle buyers have to keep the live weights low enough not to cause slow-downs on the kill floor. The only boneless cut that is saved from the bull for wholesale selling would be the tenderloin. Everything else will be sold on a lean-point basis. North Carolina has one of the few bull killers on the east coast.
Back in the day when everybody was using rail beef you need the lean because we generated so much fat trim at store level. So supermarket execs. began buying up all the imported frozen beef they could which could be in the from of 90 or even 85 % percent lean. But in todays world where Country of Origin has been established it creates a problem for advertising fresh in store ground beef.
I thought I heard everything until Burgermeister mentioned the frozen imported beef being mixed with lamb fat. That's a new one for me. LOL>LOL>LOL>
well if you put lamb fat into beef with no beef fat it will taste of lamb.
in the same way cheap frozen pizza will not have pork in the pepperoni but chicken and pork fat added to it.
there is another one too which dont spring to mind a different species fat is added to it or maybe its the lamb one again adding it to lamb kebabs, might be lamb fat added to pork
We are grinding sirloin tips exclusively for our "100% ground sirloin." In fact, I was told by a supervisor to never put tip in my round lug because it's sirloin not round LOL. It's pretty bad when your meat bosses have no idea where the primals come from!
We are grinding sirloin tips exclusively for our "100% ground sirloin." In fact, I was told by a supervisor to never put tip in my round lug because it's sirloin not round LOL. It's pretty bad when your meat bosses have no idea where the primals come from!
maybe if they called it "ground sirloin tip" it would still sound like ground sirloin to the customers and at the same time, the store would be honest about the description.
-- Edited by Burgermeister on Wednesday 1st of February 2017 07:17:27 AM
Burgermeister, again and again you hit the nail on the head. Right now a butcher shop, meat store, restaurant, and supermarket have the ability to side-step traditional nomenclature to create false nomenclature as it applies to meat identification by committing what I like to call "Economic Adulteration" (E. A.)--- While USDA, FDA and FSIS, monitors packer and supermarket level businesses they completely turn a "blind eye" to Economic Adulteration. There is no doubt that both agencies (FDA & FSIS) work diligently to safe-guard our food supply which is their primary responsibility, they completely overlook a most serious topic such as Economic Adulteration.
So what is Economic Adulteration? Economic adulteration (also known as “economically motivated adulteration”) is defined in the report to mean “the fraudulent, intentional substitution or addition of a substance in a product for the purpose of increasing the apparent value of the product or reducing the cost of its production, i.e., for economic gain: In the meat business or "meat merchandising" that we all have been trained to do could fall within E.A. guidelines.
(November 27, 2011)GAO Says FDA Needs to do More to Address “Economic Adulteration---
From my perch, I haven't seen much action on E.A. within the last 6 years! We will have a discussion on this topic in coming weeks.
-- Edited by Coalcracker on Tuesday 31st of January 2017 11:46:11 AM
The first cut and last cut sirloin steaks are unattractive, might as well grind for sirloin, make stir fry, or kabob meat. End cuts are very difficult to sell. Why produce them?
